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ON THE RECORD
TONY LLOYD INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: 91¸£ÀûÉç ONE DATE: 2.5.99
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well I spoke to the Foreign Office Minister
Tony Lloyd a little earlier this morning and I began by asking him whether there would be a
diplomatic response from NATO to today¹s release of the three American servicemen.
TONY LLOYD: That¹s a very welcome development but actually
it¹s not that positive a development, I mean, how do I explain for example to all the Kosovo
Albanian refugees in Macedonia and Albania and in different parts of the world that it was
only on the basis of these three individuals that NATO had to respond. Milosevic knows
what he has to do. He has to make sure there¹s a secure environment for the Kosovo
Albanians to return to and that means withdrawal of his troops and it means an international
peace keeping force and when he comes to negotiate on that basis then that will be progress.
HUMPHRYS: So nothing in response to that and nothing in
response to what the Russians have been trying to sort out themselves, they¹ve been
beavering away trying to get some sort of diplomatic solution that hasn¹t been acceptable to
us. It seems that we¹re not actually interested in negotiations, all we want effectively, is a
total surrender from Milosevic on those five points that have been made to him.
LLOYD: Well I think terms like whether this is total
surrender, not interested in negotiation, are rather loaded. Of course Å Å
HUMPHRYS: Š.But this is reality, isn¹t it?
LLOYD: Well, we are interested in negotiation because in
the end Mr. Milosevic knows he will have to negotiate a proper solution, but there can¹t
seriously be any compromise on the Kosovo Albanians returning home with enough security
to guarantee they don¹t get killed. That¹s not something anybody would negotiate on. I mean,
I must put it to all of your listeners, would anybody seriously go back to Kosovo at the
moment with Milosevic¹s army there, without a proper NATO led force to guarantee long
term security because I am certain I wouldn¹t.
HUMPHRYS: So to return to my basic point, that is it. Unless
he concedes those five points no negotiations clearly and we just keep bombing and bombing
and bombing.
LLOYD: Well most certainly until Milosevic understands
he must concede on those five points then there can¹t be any end to the conflict that he¹s
started because of course let¹s also be realistic, he still continues to do enormous damage to the
ordinary people in Kosovo. That¹s why those five demands are not matters of NATO being
unreasonable autocratic, it¹s actually what are the very basic reasons for NATO taking action
in the first place, not just military action, it¹s why for a year we tried a diplomatic solution.
Milosevic at no stage has been prepared to create a framework that gives the Kosovo
Albanians the opportunity to live in peace and without the kind of fear of death that they
have lived with over recent weeks or months.
HUMPHRYS: So Kofi Annan of the United Nations and Victor
Chernomyrdin from Russia, Jesse Jackson for that matter, all of whom have been talking to
him in one way or another, they might as well all pack up and go home?
LLOYD: No, we very much welcome the role of all
credible mediators and certainly both the Secretary General of the United Nations and Mr.
Chernomyrdin on behalf of the Russians are very welcome as mediators. In the end there will
have to be mediation, but Milosevic has got to understand that mediation is possible but only
if he¹s prepared to give basic and well understood pre-conditions and that is the five demands
that NATO has already put forward. We have got to see the Albanian refugees return to their
homes. We¹ve got to see them return with long term and short term security. Not so
unreasonable.
HUMPHRYS: So the only mediation to use your word comes
after he has surrendered. You don¹t like the word surrender but that¹s what it amounts to
isn¹t it?
LLOYD: Well I am not sure the word is relevant in this
context. Mr. Milosevic knows that he can¹t continue to make war against his own people if
he¹s got to surrender to the Kosovo Albanians and say that I won¹t make war against my
people any more, then that¹s surrender but these are ŠŠ..
HUMPHRYS: Š..He¹s got to do more than that hasn¹t he?
He¹s got to pull all of his forces out of his own country, he¹s got to allow armed forces into
his country, if that isn¹t surrender, heaven knows what is.
LLOYD: But those are the necessary preconditions for us
and most importantly the refugees to know that they can return to their homes from which
they were driven at gunpoint by Milosevic. Now, the terminology really doesn¹t matter as
long as we are all very clear that Milosevic has got to conform to those demands.
HUMPHRYS: That¹s the point. And we can never now, can
we, sit down at a table with him, because we have so demonised him - we¹ve called him a
genocidal murderer and so on, so talking to Milosevic, I mean, you for instance, or one of your
colleagues, Tony Blair or anybody else for that matter sitting down at the table and talking
with Milosevic simply isn¹t on is it? Can¹t be done.
LLOYD: Well Mr. Milosevic I understand said yesterday
he would like to meet President Bill Clinton.
HUMPHRYS: Is that on the cards?
LLOYD: Well that¹s Mr. Milosevic who issued that
comment and of course in the end Milosevic himself has demonised himself, it¹s Milosevic
who has turned his murder machine against innocent people in Kosovo, it wasn¹t NATO, it
wasn¹t Britain. Within that context of course, we will talk to Mr. Milosevic, but on the basis
that he wants to make a proper and long term arrangement for the return of the refugees and
their security when they return to their homes.
HUMPHRYS: It¹s a bit obvious isn¹t it? I mean, people like
your own Foreign Secretary, Secretary of State for Defence come onto programmes like this
and talk about him as a genocidal killer. You can say no worse of any man than that can you?
The idea that you would actually sit down with a genocidal killer and talk about anything is
bizarre, isn¹t it.
LLOYD: Well this is rather, damned if we don¹t, damned if
we do isn¹t it? We are intransigence if we refuse to talk. We are compromisers if we do talk.
But the simple reality is Å Å Å
HUMPHRYS: I¹m saying you¹ve painted yourselves into a
corner, that¹s my point.
LLOYD: No, there¹s no corner into which we are painted.
Mr Milosevic continues to push himself into that corner but our objectives are very very
clear: We want to see the refugees return. Now in the end of course Milosevic, I suppose,
does know that he has to accept NATO¹s preconditions, the question for us is how long is it
going to be before he accepts that as the basis on which he operates? Within that of course we
will arrange for talks to take place that allow the refugees to return, there¹s no compromise in
doing that, no compromise with a recognition that Milosevic has turned what is a machine of
murder on civilians of Kosovo.
HUMPHRYS: So ifÅ . When you sayÅ . If he does accept all
this and the refuges go back to Kosovo it is inconceivable isn¹t it that he could still be in charge
of Kosovo, after all they would hardly go back with a genocidal killer in charge of the country,
you wouldn¹t want them to go back with a genocidal killer in charge of the country so that¹s
out isn¹t it?
LLOYD: Well I think that is the practical reality where
Milosevic now has driven things but that¹s been his choice and that¹s been the result of his
actions.
HUMPHRYS: So we have to unseat him?
LLOYD: Well what we¹ve begun to talk about of course is
the idea that there should be some form of international control of Kosovo to allow a political
structure to exist when the refuges are beginning to return and have returned so that that can
move forward the ordinary day to day life, to rebuild the police force, to rebuild the school
system, to rebuild the economy. All that¹s going to need some form of civil authority but it is
true to say that Mr Milosevic has made it almost impossible now for the Kosovan Albanians
and maybe even the Serbs to accept his long term control in Kosovo.
HUMPHRYS: So de facto independence for Kosovo, that¹s
what we¹re talking about?
LLOYD: I think we¹re talking about some form of
internationalisation of the civilian control for Kosovo with a view obviously that the long term
future, as we always said, can be defined once we¹ve got to a more stable Kosovo and refuges
returned and are able once again to play the part of citizens of Kosovo and not refuges in
different parts of the world.
HUMPHRYS: We are fighting this war we are always told, we
were told right from the very beginning for moral reasons. Doesn¹t morality demand that we
increase the diplomatic efforts one way or the other, seriously negotiate one way or the other
even if it means a bit of compromise because the longer this goes on every single day it goes on
innocent people are being hurt, they are being killed, you say they are being raped. Terrible
things are happening to an awful lot of innocent people every day this war goes on. We¹re
seeing more NATO bombs going astray and killing people in a Œbus. We can¹t just carry on
like this can we?
LLOYD: No. I think there is nobody on the NATO side
who wouldn¹t want to see the military phase come to an end forthwith but the control of that
d does rest I¹m afraid with Mr Milosevic.
HUMPHRYS: That was the Foreign Office Minister Tony
Lloyd.
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